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> A New Religion Thread, What does it mean to you?
wolfram
post May 8 2009, 02:25 AM
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Well, if I were to answer for him.

I'd say yes.


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TheWerg
post May 8 2009, 02:27 AM
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You know, I guess I think there is a god. But I really don't believe he ever enters into my life, or cares about me, or about humans in general. So I don't particularly care whether he exists or not. Morality is a more interesting question, in my opinion.


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"Slowly, I began to see--as if a veil had lifted--the tortured shadow of Cain everywhere, within me and without, his many cultural reincarnations parading through my mind like frames projected on a cyclorama. He was the first city-builder. Perhaps the father of science and philosophy. His war was with God, the Father who spurned him. Of the two--him and Abel--only Cain possessed subjectivity. A complex inner life. It was said that Western man himself was Cain, cursed with the burden of restlessness and the endless quest for selfhood."
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smarterthanuthin...
post May 8 2009, 03:01 AM
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1. I am a practicing Roman Catholic.

2. My family has been Roman Catholic ever since the 1900's. My great-great grandfather fought in the Cristero War in Mexico, as a Cristero in the 1920's. Before that, my ancestors followed their own polytheistic and indigenous religions. So to answer your question, I profess this faith for two reasons; one being that I was raised a devout Catholic. One point that I stress to people is that my parents never forced this religion upon me or my siblings. If we didn't want to go to mass, we didn't have to. If we didn't want to participate in religious discussions, then that was our choice. But we still had to attend Catholic school and respect other peoples thoughts and beliefs regarding religion. So let me make this clear; I had a choice. And my choice, as you know, was to become a Catholic. I am a firm believer in the Word Of God. That is another reason I practice Catholicism. As a young kid I wasn't taught how to read the bible. I could quote any scripture passage, I could name all the books of the bible and I could tell you what every book contains. But I didnt know how to read the bible. I read the bible as a literalist, not as a contextualist. And many many people make that mistake. What specific ideas or occurrences fascinate me? The book of Revelation. That book is often seen as a book of sorrow and despair and fear. But it is actually a book of love and joy. I guess you really have to read it as a contextualist to understand what I mean.

3. I just try to live as best I can. Or as Jesus would have. I don't do things that would disappoint my parents, God, or myself. When I do, do things that are not morally correct I go to confession, repent and vow to never do it again. I firmly believe that in order for one to obtain eternal salvation one must have three things. Faith, works and scripture. In James 2:14-26, James says that Faith without works is dead and that work without faith is meaningless. Solo Scripturum and Solo Fide are two religious concepts I do not, and will not ever agree with. That being said I not only try to live out my faith but I try to study it through scripture and prayer. Does God hear my prayers? Of course. Does he always answer them? Yes. In the way that I expect him to? No.

4. I would change the close mindedness of my fellow Catholics. It is one thing to have your beliefs and stick to them, but it is another matter entirely, to condemn or over-generalize people just because they are from another religion. All in all, I love my religion. I love being a Catholic but I also love learning new things, and I love learning about other peoples beliefs. And I think it all boils down to what I believe in and what I, as a Catholic am summoned to do, which is to love my neighbor.

wow..i didnt mean for it to be this long..

This post has been edited by smarterthanuthink: May 8 2009, 03:02 AM


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im kind of a big deal.

"Tu ne quaesieris, scire nefas, quem mihi, quem tibi
finem di dederint, Leuconoe, nec Babylonios
temptaris numeros. ut melius, quicquid erit, pati,
seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit Iuppiter ultimam,
quae nunc oppositis debilitat pumicibus mare
Tyrrhenum: sapias, uina liques, et spatio breui
spem longam reseces. dum loquimur, fugerit inuida
aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
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Subversive Asset...
post May 8 2009, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE (TheWerg @ May 7 2009, 09:16 PM) *
So when you talk about believing in a god, you mean that despite your lack of knowledge in the area, you have faith that there is some higher power, while if you don't believe, although you acknowledge it's possible, your faith goes the other way, toward the idea that there is no god?


This is close, but this still only acknowledge two possibilities -- theist and strong atheist.

I propose that the weak atheist merely does not believe in a god. He doesn't believe there is no god (so there is no swinging of faith the other way). To say there is faith in lacking belief doesn't make sense (while to say there is faith in a belief there is no god -- and I'm sure I'll become very controversial with any strong atheists on this board with this comment -- is defensible), This is a critical distinction that I think a lot of people do not understand about atheism and atheists. You don't have to say, "I believe there are no gods" to simply lack a belief in gods (or, if you will, to not believe in gods, or to disbelieve in gods).

I would say however that by definition of the word, there is no such thing as a weak theist however. While you are intuitively and etymologically atheist (a weak variety) by not believing in gods, you aren't intuitively or etymologically theist by not believing there are no gods. Theism is a positive belief in god, not merely a negation of the belief there are no gods. (Keep in mind though that this positive belief in gods is not knowledge or certainty)

QUOTE (TheWerg @ May 7 2009, 09:27 PM) *
You know, I guess I think there is a god. But I really don't believe he ever enters into my life, or cares about me, or about humans in general. So I don't particularly care whether he exists or not. Morality is a more interesting question, in my opinion.


Deism alert'd. Also, apatheism. Nothing wrong with this.


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Subversive Asset...
post May 8 2009, 03:23 AM
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QUOTE (wolfram @ May 7 2009, 09:11 PM) *
If you really tried hard to pin me down I'd probably sway between agnostic atheism and agnostic theism... but that's because generally I'm an apathist


*coughs*

again, I would say that now, we get into a new dimension. If our x dimension is our belief, the y dimension could reasonably be our certainty/claim about knowledge...and then the z dimension, the third dimension is the centrality or commitment power of our belief.

Apatheism, I think, is not a *what* of belief (x dimension), but a *how* of belief. Whereas one could believe devoutly, I think apatheism represents the opposite end of that dimension...of belief (or lack of belief) that isn't very centrally held. Once again though, just as the y axis is not a suitable 'replacement' for the x axis, the z isn't either.

I can say that I'm apatheist, but that doesn't preclude me from being atheist. And I know the distinction between those who are apatheist, but are theist (these are the kinds of people who believe...but their belief doesn't seem to engage them and radically propel them in the direction of repentance and transformation). So, not to challenge your belief, but saying you sway between seems like a dodge on the question...


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BadgerCam
post May 8 2009, 03:33 AM
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Debator, if I post in this tread, give me a huge warn. Keep me out of this.

This post has been edited by BadgerCam: May 8 2009, 03:45 AM


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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too
much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
"

"
Where we directed from Washington when to sow
and when to reap, we should soon want bread.
"

"
I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.
It places the governors indeed more at their ease, at the expense of the people"

*Thomas Jefferson*

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tryingtothinkaga...
post May 8 2009, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (TheWerg @ May 7 2009, 06:24 PM) *
To the people who adhere to a strict reading of the Bible: How do you justify that action, considering the editing and censorship that occurred, what was lost in translation, questionable authorship and accuracy, and the contradictions inherent in the text?

We learn Hebrew and Latin, we research the cultures at the time of writing, we research the historical documents attesting to the authorship of books of the Bible, and either ignore the contradictions or take them head-on until you figure out that they don't really contradict each other (I take the latter course of action, and has worked every time).


--------------------
Teddy Roosevelt's ghost 2012!

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QUOTE (BearMan @ Feb 2 2012, 01:52 PM) *
oO You must have been a godly varsity.
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TheWerg
post May 8 2009, 03:39 AM
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So do you believe that being gay is a sin, and that we should ban gay marriage, etc.?


--------------------
"Slowly, I began to see--as if a veil had lifted--the tortured shadow of Cain everywhere, within me and without, his many cultural reincarnations parading through my mind like frames projected on a cyclorama. He was the first city-builder. Perhaps the father of science and philosophy. His war was with God, the Father who spurned him. Of the two--him and Abel--only Cain possessed subjectivity. A complex inner life. It was said that Western man himself was Cain, cursed with the burden of restlessness and the endless quest for selfhood."
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Justin Nichols
post May 8 2009, 03:45 AM
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smarterthanuthink, you are a very decent Roman Catholic. It is always a pleasure to meet someone like you =)


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Justin Nichols
post May 8 2009, 03:47 AM
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Subversive Asset 2.0, I agree with you that strong atheism may require faith. I may be wrong.

I am a weak atheist.


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tryingtothinkaga...
post May 8 2009, 03:51 AM
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QUOTE (TheWerg @ May 7 2009, 10:39 PM) *
So do you believe that being gay is a sin, and that we should ban gay marriage, etc.?

I believe living a life of active homosexuality is sinful. I also believe that living a life of heterosexual intercourse with many different people is sinful. I believe marriage is an institution between a man and a woman, a life-long binding of two people.


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Teddy Roosevelt's ghost 2012!

"Also, I can kill you with my brain."

QUOTE (BearMan @ Feb 2 2012, 01:52 PM) *
oO You must have been a godly varsity.
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TheWerg
post May 8 2009, 03:51 AM
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Okay. Have you ever eaten lobster? Shrimp?

Edit: This comes across with more hostility online than it would in person. I want to be completely civil here, and promote a sharing of ideas and a debate over them.

This post has been edited by TheWerg: May 8 2009, 03:53 AM


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"Slowly, I began to see--as if a veil had lifted--the tortured shadow of Cain everywhere, within me and without, his many cultural reincarnations parading through my mind like frames projected on a cyclorama. He was the first city-builder. Perhaps the father of science and philosophy. His war was with God, the Father who spurned him. Of the two--him and Abel--only Cain possessed subjectivity. A complex inner life. It was said that Western man himself was Cain, cursed with the burden of restlessness and the endless quest for selfhood."
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Subversive Asset...
post May 8 2009, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (Justin Nichols @ May 7 2009, 10:47 PM) *
Subversive Asset 2.0, I agree with you that strong atheism may require faith. I may be wrong.

I am a weak atheist.


Hi five.

also, JOIN US BADGER CAAAAAAAAAAM.

if things get crazy, you can be sure that all the mods, admins, and nazgul have this topic in their laser sights set to kill.


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monica
post May 8 2009, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (TheWerg @ May 7 2009, 10:39 PM) *
So do you believe that being gay is a sin, and that we should ban gay marriage, etc.?

Homosexuality as we understand it today is a biblical anachronism. The Bible makes NO commentary about being gay, gay marriage, or gay love.


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wolfram
post May 8 2009, 03:55 AM
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what about sodomy?


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monica
post May 8 2009, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (wolfram @ May 7 2009, 10:55 PM) *
what about sodomy?

Sodomy is a sexual act, not an orientation. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is actually a story about hospitality, not homosexuality. When the story is referred to in other places of the Bible, it is never in reference to sexual activity-- always hospitality. Sodomy in Leviticus is referred to as an abomination, which spoke to idolatry. The mentions of sodomy in the epistles is very odd, being that the words translate to things like "man bed," which is unclear, given that there were many other words a learned Greek writer could have used to mean something more precise. Those passages seem to address male prostitution.

Orientation did not exist in the consciousness of those authoring Scripture. There was no gay or straight-- people just were who they were. Homosexual as a term did not come into usage until the 20th century, and even then it was originally known as the "homophile movement."


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tryingtothinkaga...
post May 8 2009, 04:03 AM
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QUOTE (TheWerg @ May 7 2009, 10:51 PM) *
Okay. Have you ever eaten lobster? Shrimp?

Edit: This comes across with more hostility online than it would in person. I want to be completely civil here, and promote a sharing of ideas and a debate over them.

Yep. And if you read the New Testament (book of Acts, if I remember correctly), we were given the right to consume all of God's creatures, and convert all of His people. Or possibly just the latter. Sadly, it's been a while.

Yeah, no problem. Just so long as you avoid the ad hominem attacks, or just flat out say religion is stupid, or believers are stupid, etc., I always assume a completely civil tone.

This post has been edited by tryingtothinkagain: May 8 2009, 04:08 AM


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QUOTE (BearMan @ Feb 2 2012, 01:52 PM) *
oO You must have been a godly varsity.
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Jonesy
post May 8 2009, 04:10 AM
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QUOTE (monica @ May 7 2009, 10:56 PM) *
QUOTE (wolfram @ May 7 2009, 10:55 PM) *
what about sodomy?

Sodomy is a sexual act, not an orientation. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is actually a story about hospitality, not homosexuality. When the story is referred to in other places of the Bible, it is never in reference to sexual activity-- always hospitality. Sodomy in Leviticus is referred to as an abomination, which spoke to idolatry. The mentions of sodomy in the epistles is very odd, being that the words translate to things like "man bed," which is unclear, given that there were many other words a learned Greek writer could have used to mean something more precise. Those passages seem to address male prostitution.

Orientation did not exist in the consciousness of those authoring Scripture. There was no gay or straight-- people just were who they were. Homosexual as a term did not come into usage until the 20th century, and even then it was originally known as the "homophile movement."

Thank you for posting here and bringing the light of reason. (I'm being dead serious)
This is my main beef with some Christians, people reading the bible and misconstruing it to fit their beliefs, instead of reading it and setting their beliefs based on what it says (which I still think is slightly silly, but I can respect that)


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QUOTE (Crow @ Mar 30 2010, 12:24 AM) *
Jonesy, who is, of course, the measurement of all things manly on this site
QUOTE (zzzptm @ Nov 9 2009, 10:29 PM) *
JBroms is the voice of reason
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TheWerg
post May 8 2009, 04:12 AM
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But the point is that many of the original tenets of the Bible weren't true instructions of morality, like the "shellfish are an abomination" clause. They were there as just good, common sense rules to maintaining health, or so the pieces of Bible scholarship that I've seen would have me believe. Because shellfish often went bad and could make you sick, it was best to instruct you not to consume them. The same is true for other parts of Leviticus, it's simply encouraging healthy living. But in today's modern world it's unnecessary.

Furthermore, isn't sin a deliberate act? I know that many Christians posit that homosexuality is a choice, but most findings seem to point that animals engage in homosexual behavior too. Would you claim that they make a deliberate choice to do so, or is it simply part of their nature? If it is part of their nature, isn't it more in keeping with the spirit of Christianity to be accepting?

And don't worry about anything ad hominem; many of my best friends are extremely religious Christians, and we get along fine, even when I argue religion with them.

Edit: directed at tryingtothinkagain. Also, thank you, monica. Interesting post.

This post has been edited by TheWerg: May 8 2009, 04:13 AM


--------------------
"Slowly, I began to see--as if a veil had lifted--the tortured shadow of Cain everywhere, within me and without, his many cultural reincarnations parading through my mind like frames projected on a cyclorama. He was the first city-builder. Perhaps the father of science and philosophy. His war was with God, the Father who spurned him. Of the two--him and Abel--only Cain possessed subjectivity. A complex inner life. It was said that Western man himself was Cain, cursed with the burden of restlessness and the endless quest for selfhood."
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tryingtothinkaga...
post May 8 2009, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Jonesy @ May 7 2009, 11:10 PM) *
QUOTE (monica @ May 7 2009, 10:56 PM) *
QUOTE (wolfram @ May 7 2009, 10:55 PM) *
what about sodomy?

Sodomy is a sexual act, not an orientation. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is actually a story about hospitality, not homosexuality. When the story is referred to in other places of the Bible, it is never in reference to sexual activity-- always hospitality. Sodomy in Leviticus is referred to as an abomination, which spoke to idolatry. The mentions of sodomy in the epistles is very odd, being that the words translate to things like "man bed," which is unclear, given that there were many other words a learned Greek writer could have used to mean something more precise. Those passages seem to address male prostitution.

Orientation did not exist in the consciousness of those authoring Scripture. There was no gay or straight-- people just were who they were. Homosexual as a term did not come into usage until the 20th century, and even then it was originally known as the "homophile movement."

Thank you for posting here and bringing the light of reason. (I'm being dead serious)
This is my main beef with some Christians, people reading the bible and misconstruing it to fit their beliefs, instead of reading it and setting their beliefs based on what it says (which I still think is slightly silly, but I can respect that)

One of the first things my dad was taught in marketing is that people make decisions based on emotions, then find facts to back them up. 'Tis human nature.


--------------------
Teddy Roosevelt's ghost 2012!

"Also, I can kill you with my brain."

QUOTE (BearMan @ Feb 2 2012, 01:52 PM) *
oO You must have been a godly varsity.
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