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> A New Religion Thread, What does it mean to you?
Jonesy
post May 7 2009, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (debator @ May 7 2009, 04:39 PM) *
first, i would argue that it is wrong all the time. the ends does not justify the means, especially when the means is as horrific as it is here.

secondly, i think that a person who argues for total ethical relativism would be forced to say that they can't condemn any action in any context as wrong or evil.

So if I think that killing someone is ok in some circumstances, I have the think killing someone is always ok? huh.gif


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iMatt
post May 7 2009, 09:45 PM
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1. I guess I fit somewhere between agnosticism and deism, I think there is a god(s), but to be honest I can't prove a damn thing, it's all speculation.

2. If you really truly think about it, being on the fence is the only logical place to be. Neither side knows what the hell is true or not regarding god's existence, and we can't. Ever. End of story. I don't knock people who can go it on faith alone though, I may not like it, but I can certainly respect the decision.

3. I suppose it doesn't at all. Not living in a life where I have codified morality, I've grasped my own. Certain aspects of it fit within the tenets of Christianity (or to be fair, the tenets of Western Civilizations). I was baptized Catholic, but wasn't forced into CCD/sunday school or anything. I actually ended up going to temple more often (still quite seldom) than church. I found the Catholic setting of worship to be gaudy and full of hypocrisy, for a religion with a strong reliance on the ten commandments, every Catholic church I've been to has had false idols a plenty (I'm talking about the cross, mainly, fyi). But seeing all that come from what is essentially the largest religion out there, I slipped away from it and organized religion entirely.

4. Pretentious atheists mainly, all you guys who think there is no higher power and lord that over those who are even doubtful? Yeah you're annoyances of people who can't prove anything one way or the other, so get in line on the fence or quiet down. Alternatively become a devout Catholic. Or something.


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Bianca_Ann
post May 7 2009, 09:46 PM
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1. I'm not really sure of what I am. Is there a religious category for someone who believes there is no god but wishes there was one anyway? I was raised without any serious religious constraints and really I think that religion is just something to take up time in people's lives because deep down all of us believe that there is nothing after death.

2. The only reason that I believe this is because I have never found anything else that seems logical. I understand that there are usually prophets for each religion but I believe that they were just people who spoke about their beliefs, regardless of "bad or good", and others were willing to follow them.

3. In my mind morals are relative to the culture that you were raised in. Because of this, I only act on what I believe is right. Of course this is a selfish point of view but I can't always tell what is acceptable to everyone else the only thing that I can be sure of is what I think is morally correct.

4. Most people that claim to be atheist are confrontational which really bothers me. If you want to believe in a sack as your god, do it. It's not my place to judge others and even saying that atheists have a tendency to be confrontational bothers me but whatever. If you have thoughts on religion keep them to yourself unless someone asks.
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Subversive Asset...
post May 7 2009, 09:49 PM
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I would like to ask everyone who implied such a thing: how is there a fence between belief and non-belief? What alternative is there to the two?

Keep in mind that the distinction is not between believing there is a god or believing there is no god...but that the distinction is believing in a god or not believing in a god...A or not A. How is there a third option...a "fence," so to speak?


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iMatt
post May 7 2009, 09:53 PM
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The fence is called doubt, indecision, puzzlement, etc.

There is an inbetween state of believing and not believing, me saying "there may be a god, but also, there may not be a god, if he exists, super!, if not, oh well that works too. However right now I can't say one way or the other whether or not it exists or if I believe" kind of sums up what I think at least


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iMatt
post May 7 2009, 10:08 PM
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Agnosticism is a perfectly cromulent stance on religion.


It embiggens the soul.

This post has been edited by iMatt: May 7 2009, 10:09 PM


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Stanley Tree
post May 7 2009, 10:16 PM
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I take Freud's stance, that's it's a coping mechanism.


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iMatt
post May 7 2009, 10:20 PM
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Freud was a moron. I use an ad hominem attack against him because he's not around to care. His theories on psychology are about as certain as any religion itself. There was no science, like at all. Though I occasionally blame stupid things I say on my id.


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iMatt
post May 7 2009, 10:34 PM
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That stuff kinda rings true, but his overall view of human nature was terrible, mainly because he studied prostitutes/prisoners/people on the lower tier etc. His complexes and fixations that he used to diagnose his patients was dumb though. So many people were affected by his ideas on psychosexual development which were based off people who had clear problems early on in their lives, which led to big problems later on. It didn't really apply to most people. I mean there's tons of reasons most of his work is discredited by pretty much everyone.


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iMatt
post May 7 2009, 10:39 PM
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His more famous ones certainly, but I've read in a couple textbooks that he also dealt alot with lower class citizens.


Of course I could be fabricating these memories, but I'm fairly certain of it.

This post has been edited by iMatt: May 7 2009, 10:43 PM


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AK_WDB
post May 7 2009, 10:59 PM
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Agnosticism is interesting to me. I think "atheist" is a better term to describe me than "agnostic", since I personally am fairly certain that God---at least in the sense of some conscious, all-powerful being---does not exist. Some would call this hypocritical and say that I'm turning atheism into a blind faith, but I don't see it that way; I simply don't believe anything magical or supernatural exists, which seems perfectly logical. However, "atheist" obviously has a negative connotation in our largely religious society, implying that a person arrogantly believes humans are the most powerful thing in the universe and that there is no reason to behave in a moral way aside from one's own human interests. That's the type of atheism I'd like to challenge.
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TheWerg
post May 7 2009, 11:24 PM
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To the people who adhere to a strict reading of the Bible: How do you justify that action, considering the editing and censorship that occurred, what was lost in translation, questionable authorship and accuracy, and the contradictions inherent in the text?


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Justin Nichols
post May 7 2009, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (iMatt @ May 7 2009, 09:53 PM) *
The fence is called doubt, indecision, puzzlement, etc.

There is an inbetween state of believing and not believing, me saying "there may be a god, but also, there may not be a god, if he exists, super!, if not, oh well that works too. However right now I can't say one way or the other whether or not it exists or if I believe" kind of sums up what I think at least



How does this differ from lacking a belief either way, which is basically the definition of negative atheism?

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. I am technically an agnostic atheist, I just choose to emphasize the "atheist" part.


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Subversive Asset...
post May 8 2009, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (iMatt @ May 7 2009, 04:53 PM) *
The fence is called doubt, indecision, puzzlement, etc.

There is an inbetween state of believing and not believing, me saying "there may be a god, but also, there may not be a god, if he exists, super!, if not, oh well that works too. However right now I can't say one way or the other whether or not it exists or if I believe" kind of sums up what I think at least


The question is not "Is there a god?" (which implies a knowledge that, I agree, it's uncertain.)

It's "Do you believe there is?" (this implies no knowledge)

Atheism is not saying, "There must be no god." In fact, I recognize fully that there may be a god, and there may not be a god. But this doesn't change that I don't believe in one, regardless of his existence or not. That's because I *am* agnostic atheist. I think Justin Nichols has the idea down. Similarly, for people who don't know if there is a god, but still believe there is one, they are agnostic theists. Agnosticism is not mutually exclusive with these ideas.

My charge is that agnosticism/gnosticism and atheism/theism are different questions that answer different things. So, I ask again, how is there a third option from believing or believing?

Let me try to clarify. "There may be a god, but also, there may not be a god, if he exists, super! if not, oh well that works too. i am not motivated to practice x religion because i do not believe it or in that god, but I don't know if that god exists or not."


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iMatt
post May 8 2009, 01:36 AM
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I guess then I would have to clarify and say I'm more of an agnostic theist, I will always say that I believe there is a higher power of some sort. What it is I couldn't tell you, and I'm not certain of it's existence, but yet I believe in *something* anyways.


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Subversive Asset...
post May 8 2009, 02:08 AM
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and there's nothing wrong with that.

If I could change another thing...about both theism and atheism...then I would change this idea that seems to have become popular with people that either position requires a 100% surety or knowledge...when traditionally, historically, etymologically, and intuitively, neither position has been such. There has been a longstanding tradition of agnostic theism in particular -- of people who, precisely because they *do not know* that God exists, are commended for their *faith* and belief. If we say that agnosticism and theism are incompatible, then we make a mockery of the tradition.

And the same is true for agnosticism and atheism. If we say they are incompatible, we really exclude a lot of people who would intuitively and etymologically be atheist. Someone who does not believe in gods should be atheist regardless of if they do not know gods do not exist or regardless of if they do not positively assert gods do not exist. The necessary definition is only that *mere atheism* -- the lack of belief.


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wolfram
post May 8 2009, 02:11 AM
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If you really tried hard to pin me down I'd probably sway between agnostic atheism and agnostic theism... but that's because generally I'm an apathist






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TheWerg
post May 8 2009, 02:16 AM
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So when you talk about believing in a god, you mean that despite your lack of knowledge in the area, you have faith that there is some higher power, while if you don't believe, although you acknowledge it's possible, your faith goes the other way, toward the idea that there is no god?


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"Slowly, I began to see--as if a veil had lifted--the tortured shadow of Cain everywhere, within me and without, his many cultural reincarnations parading through my mind like frames projected on a cyclorama. He was the first city-builder. Perhaps the father of science and philosophy. His war was with God, the Father who spurned him. Of the two--him and Abel--only Cain possessed subjectivity. A complex inner life. It was said that Western man himself was Cain, cursed with the burden of restlessness and the endless quest for selfhood."
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wolfram
post May 8 2009, 02:19 AM
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If you're speaking specifically to me, I don't care about the question and it has no relevance to my life. Therefore if forced to answer, I'll choose the answers that say "I don't know and don't act on it, but really it could be this way or that way" depending on who I'm talking to, how I'm feeling, and my sobriety.



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TheWerg
post May 8 2009, 02:24 AM
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Oh, I was directing it more at Subversive Asset, sorry.


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"Slowly, I began to see--as if a veil had lifted--the tortured shadow of Cain everywhere, within me and without, his many cultural reincarnations parading through my mind like frames projected on a cyclorama. He was the first city-builder. Perhaps the father of science and philosophy. His war was with God, the Father who spurned him. Of the two--him and Abel--only Cain possessed subjectivity. A complex inner life. It was said that Western man himself was Cain, cursed with the burden of restlessness and the endless quest for selfhood."
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