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> Division IV at Nationals
Guest_Dave C_*
post Oct 31 2017, 08:48 PM
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I don't know when this got added, but I saw it on the USAD homepage today. I don't think anyone has mentioned it here yet, but I assume there are some opinions out there.

The USAD Board of Directors has approved the establishment of a Division IV to be added to the USAD face-to-face national competitions. Each State that sends a State championship team to the national USAD face-to-face competition may also send a team that will compete in Division IV. This team will be selected by each state. If the state does not have a state director this team will be selected by USAD staff. The criteria for selection will be that the team participating in Division IV will be from a different division than the state championship team unless there are no divisions in that state. The Division IV teams will only be eligible for individual medals. All teams and individuals will be required to stay at the official hotels at the national USAD competition. Division IV teams will also be validated by the same process used to verify and validate state championship teams. States who wish to send a team to participate in Division IV must notify USAD on or before November 15, 2017.
Notifications received after this date may not be honored.
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stanleytree
post Nov 1 2017, 01:58 PM
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I thought it was randomly chosen as well? As in the state would be randomly chosen? I don't really see the point of this other than "more teams" at nationals which is cool, but they can't even compete for the full championship or team scores? I don't get it. Are the teams from China still participating? I thought the original reason to stop inviting 2nd place teams was so that the schools from China could compete. Also, it says it has to be from a different division- is that based on USAD divisions, or state divisions?

Lots of questions here...
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Guest_Alex Ballard_*
post Nov 1 2017, 03:51 PM
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I also heard about this last week from our County Coordinator, and I was very confused by the potential logistics of this "Division 4". Based on the language used, in California (for example), would a second team go to Nationals that IS NOT from Division 1 (based on the fact it says "from different divisions")? This does not seem exactly like the "wild card" teams USAD had several years ago, so I am interested to hear more about what are the requirements/process for this.
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zzzptm
post Nov 1 2017, 04:24 PM
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So this would have allowed Nimitz *and* Friendswood to go to the 2003 Nationals... Large and Medium state winners, for example. This would not allow Granada Hills and ECR to both attend, as they're in the same division.



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Guest_nixonotis_*
post Nov 1 2017, 06:58 PM
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It's great that more schools will be going to nationals, but I don't really see what problem this solves.
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TinDefacto
post Nov 2 2017, 09:51 PM
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Whoo!! I am excited for this! To answer some questions:

QUOTE (Stanley Tree @ Nov 1 2017, 09:58 AM) *
I thought it was randomly chosen as well? As in the state would be randomly chosen? I don't really see the point of this other than "more teams" at nationals which is cool, but they can't even compete for the full championship or team scores? I don't get it. Are the teams from China still participating? I thought the original reason to stop inviting 2nd place teams was so that the schools from China could compete. Also, it says it has to be from a different division- is that based on USAD divisions, or state divisions?

Lots of questions here...

So, the states are randomly chosen, yes, depending on how much space there will at Nationals. This year, I think it'll be between five and ten states that will be able to send wildcards. They will not be eligible again until all the other eligible states get a turn. I don't get why they're not eligible for team awards, though; they seem to be afraid of having a wildcard team beat the state champion team for some reason. International teams are still participating; this is instead likely to take the place of most of the individual competitors.

QUOTE (zzzptm @ Nov 1 2017, 12:24 PM) *
So this would have allowed Nimitz *and* Friendswood to go to the 2003 Nationals... Large and Medium state winners, for example.

False -- both Friendswood and Nimitz have/had well over 1300 students, the USAD cutoff for Large! (Texas has some big schools, y'all.)

QUOTE (Alex Ballard @ Nov 1 2017, 11:51 AM) *
I also heard about this last week from our County Coordinator, and I was very confused by the potential logistics of this "Division 4". Based on the language used, in California (for example), would a second team go to Nationals that IS NOT from Division 1 (based on the fact it says "from different divisions")? This does not seem exactly like the "wild card" teams USAD had several years ago, so I am interested to hear more about what are the requirements/process for this.

Technically, if a team of under 1300 students makes CA State DI, there could totally be two schools from CA DI to go to Nationals!

I am kinda weirded out by the fact that DIV teams can't get team awards, but I'm really excited for second teams to be able to go to Nationals again!
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Guest_AK_WDB_*
post Nov 4 2017, 07:41 PM
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"The criteria for selection will be that the team participating in Division IV will be from a different division than the state championship team unless there are no divisions in that state."

This makes it sound like the cutoff is based on the state organization's divisions, not USAD divisions.
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TinDefacto
post Nov 5 2017, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 4 2017, 03:41 PM) *
"The criteria for selection will be that the team participating in Division IV will be from a different division than the state championship team unless there are no divisions in that state."

This makes it sound like the cutoff is based on the state organization's divisions, not USAD divisions.

It does! That's exactly why I asked about it; they confirmed it's by USAD divisions. Don't know why they decided to word it like that.
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Guest_JSC_*
post Nov 17 2017, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 4 2017, 06:12 PM) *
QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 4 2017, 03:41 PM) *
"The criteria for selection will be that the team participating in Division IV will be from a different division than the state championship team unless there are no divisions in that state."

This makes it sound like the cutoff is based on the state organization's divisions, not USAD divisions.

It does! That's exactly why I asked about it; they confirmed it's by USAD divisions. Don't know why they decided to word it like that.

I'm pretty sure that (a time long ago) in the past the USAD divisions were determined ad hoc, once the state champions advanced. I remember the irony that when a "medium" Texas school advanced, they were placed in the large division at nationals. Or something like that.

In other words, at one time in the past the USAD size divisions were simply slices among the pool of teams that made it.
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TinDefacto
post Nov 17 2017, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (JSC @ Nov 17 2017, 06:47 AM) *
QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 4 2017, 06:12 PM) *
QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 4 2017, 03:41 PM) *
"The criteria for selection will be that the team participating in Division IV will be from a different division than the state championship team unless there are no divisions in that state."

This makes it sound like the cutoff is based on the state organization's divisions, not USAD divisions.

It does! That's exactly why I asked about it; they confirmed it's by USAD divisions. Don't know why they decided to word it like that.

I'm pretty sure that (a time long ago) in the past the USAD divisions were determined ad hoc, once the state champions advanced. I remember the irony that when a "medium" Texas school advanced, they were placed in the large division at nationals. Or something like that.

In other words, at one time in the past the USAD size divisions were simply slices among the pool of teams that made it.

It still works like that actually. So although they start with schools with populations 750-1300 in DII, they'll wiggle it a bit to make them more equal/make sure each division has at least a quarter of the competing schools in them -- not too ad hoc. Texas just has really big schools compared to the rest of the country, so almost all Medium schools in Texas are well beyond 1300, meaning well into the 'Large' division for USAD. tongue.gif
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stanleytree
post Nov 17 2017, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 17 2017, 02:13 PM) *
QUOTE (JSC @ Nov 17 2017, 06:47 AM) *
QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 4 2017, 06:12 PM) *
QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 4 2017, 03:41 PM) *
"The criteria for selection will be that the team participating in Division IV will be from a different division than the state championship team unless there are no divisions in that state."

This makes it sound like the cutoff is based on the state organization's divisions, not USAD divisions.

It does! That's exactly why I asked about it; they confirmed it's by USAD divisions. Don't know why they decided to word it like that.

I'm pretty sure that (a time long ago) in the past the USAD divisions were determined ad hoc, once the state champions advanced. I remember the irony that when a "medium" Texas school advanced, they were placed in the large division at nationals. Or something like that.

In other words, at one time in the past the USAD size divisions were simply slices among the pool of teams that made it.

It still works like that actually. So although they start with schools with populations 750-1300 in DII, they'll wiggle it a bit to make them more equal/make sure each division has at least a quarter of the competing schools in them -- not too ad hoc. Texas just has really big schools compared to the rest of the country, so almost all Medium schools in Texas are well beyond 1300, meaning well into the 'Large' division for USAD. tongue.gif


I think some of the schools in Texas considered "medium" should probably be large, considering that a 2,000 person school is not medium size. Maybe like 1,600?
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TinDefacto
post Nov 20 2017, 07:12 PM
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It's official! 23 states will have the option to send a wildcard team to Nationals this year!
  • California
  • Colorado
  • Georgia
  • Hawai'i
  • Iowa
  • Idaho
  • Illinois
  • Indiana
  • Kansas
  • Louisiana
  • Massachusetts
  • Maine
  • Minnesota
  • Nebraska
  • New Jersey
  • New York
  • Ohio
  • Pennsylvania
  • Tennessee
  • Texas
  • Utah
  • Wisconsin
  • Wyoming

I am sooooooooo excited for this!

So, since all of the top teams in Texas have populations over 1300... who else will be headed to Frisco? My bet is Lebanon Trail. cool.gif (Though I guess they wouldn't be going to Frisco, since they already kinda live there, but... you know what I mean.)
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Guest_AK_WDB_*
post Nov 20 2017, 07:25 PM
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Why does USAD keep bringing in new teams and not allowing them to compete for the team championship? First teams from China that can't beat US teams, now wild card teams that can't beat the state champions. Pretty soon more than half of all teams at nationals will be ineligible to win.
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TinDefacto
post Nov 20 2017, 07:44 PM
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Top Texas schools with populations under 1300:
  • Lebanon Trail
  • Talkington
  • Townview Talented & Gifted
  • Townview Science & Engineering
  • John Paul II
  • Bandera
  • Sam Houston
  • Taylor (not James E. Taylor)
  • Estacado
  • IL Texas Garland
  • A.C. Jones


QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 20 2017, 03:25 PM) *
Why does USAD keep bringing in new teams and not allowing them to compete for the team championship? First teams from China that can't beat US teams, now wild card teams that can't beat the state champions. Pretty soon more than half of all teams at nationals will be ineligible to win.

I think that actually is already the case... I mean, if all 23 states bring second teams, and there's 15 international, let's say, then there'd have to be 38 state champions there to match that... and last year there were only 32.
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stanleytree
post Nov 20 2017, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 20 2017, 08:44 PM) *
Top Texas schools with populations under 1300:
  • Lebanon Trail
  • Talkington
  • Townview Talented & Gifted
  • Townview Science & Engineering
  • John Paul II
  • Bandera
  • Sam Houston
  • Taylor (not James E. Taylor)
  • Estacado
  • IL Texas Garland
  • A.C. Jones


QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 20 2017, 03:25 PM) *
Why does USAD keep bringing in new teams and not allowing them to compete for the team championship? First teams from China that can't beat US teams, now wild card teams that can't beat the state champions. Pretty soon more than half of all teams at nationals will be ineligible to win.

I think that actually is already the case... I mean, if all 23 states bring second teams, and there's 15 international, let's say, then there'd have to be 38 state champions there to match that... and last year there were only 32.


I agree that it is a bit absurd. China teams are now eligible I believe though. If it was my team that was invited to division 4 I don't think I would go.
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Guest_Jr._*
post Nov 20 2017, 10:03 PM
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D IV? Thatís gonnna be one looooooooooooooooong award ceremony.
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Guest_Dave C_*
post Nov 20 2017, 11:09 PM
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This is great. Out of curiosity, is this the result of a lottery selection, or is it every state that expressed interest? I was expecting a shorter list.
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Guest_JakeLHS_*
post Nov 20 2017, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 20 2017, 08:44 PM) *
Top Texas schools with populations under 1300:
  • Lebanon Trail
  • Talkington
  • Townview Talented & Gifted
  • Townview Science & Engineering
  • John Paul II
  • Bandera
  • Sam Houston
  • Taylor (not James E. Taylor)
  • Estacado
  • IL Texas Garland
  • A.C. Jones


QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 20 2017, 03:25 PM) *
Why does USAD keep bringing in new teams and not allowing them to compete for the team championship? First teams from China that can't beat US teams, now wild card teams that can't beat the state champions. Pretty soon more than half of all teams at nationals will be ineligible to win.

I think that actually is already the case... I mean, if all 23 states bring second teams, and there's 15 international, let's say, then there'd have to be 38 state champions there to match that... and last year there were only 32.

Yay Talkington and Estecado! Strange to think Lubbock ISD has a chance (however tiny) to send two teams to nationals.
But Talkington might have some issues. I believe Talkington has special status as a medium school by TAD standards as a private/magnet school in a district with medium schools, despite being smaller than Estecado. Would that be a problem by USAD rules too?
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TinDefacto
post Nov 21 2017, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (JakeLHS @ Nov 20 2017, 07:30 PM) *
Yay Talkington and Estecado! Strange to think Lubbock ISD has a chance (however tiny) to send two teams to nationals.
But Talkington might have some issues. I believe Talkington has special status as a medium school by TAD standards as a private/magnet school in a district with medium schools, despite being smaller than Estecado. Would that be a problem by USAD rules too?

Nope! USAD goes strictly by enrollment. There are many magnet/private schools over the years that have been placed in Division III despite being able to have a very selected student body.

QUOTE (Dave C @ Nov 20 2017, 07:09 PM) *
This is great. Out of curiosity, is this the result of a lottery selection, or is it every state that expressed interest? I was expecting a shorter list.

I was too. But apparently Texas can handle all the teams, so this year it seems everyone got in who wanted!

Notable states missing are Alaska, Arizona, and Rhode Island.
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Guest_ridgepoinths_*
post Nov 21 2017, 01:50 AM
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QUOTE (TinDefacto @ Nov 20 2017, 01:44 PM) *
Top Texas schools with populations under 1300:
  • Lebanon Trail
  • Talkington
  • Townview Talented & Gifted
  • Townview Science & Engineering
  • John Paul II
  • Bandera
  • Sam Houston
  • Taylor (not James E. Taylor)
  • Estacado
  • IL Texas Garland
  • A.C. Jones


QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Nov 20 2017, 03:25 PM) *
Why does USAD keep bringing in new teams and not allowing them to compete for the team championship? First teams from China that can't beat US teams, now wild card teams that can't beat the state champions. Pretty soon more than half of all teams at nationals will be ineligible to win.

I think that actually is already the case... I mean, if all 23 states bring second teams, and there's 15 international, let's say, then there'd have to be 38 state champions there to match that... and last year there were only 32.


I don't understand how this Division IV thing works. Aren't both of the Townview teams listed as large schools in Texas and will be competing to try to earn two of the 40 spots in San Antonio? I thought it meant that if we have a repeat of last year's state finish with Highland Park winning medium and Dulles winning large but with a lower team score than Highland Park than they could also compete at nationals?
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