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> Health Care Speculations, Theories, and Ideological Differences, by everyone's favorite economist, Paul Krugman.
TheAwesomeKid
post Aug 1 2009, 10:31 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/opinion/...ugman.html?_r=2

I didn't want to post a wall of text, so there's the link. Thoughts?
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AK_WDB
post Aug 1 2009, 08:23 PM
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Not entirely truthful. The Republicans are not "opponents of reform", just opponents of the government taking a larger role. There are a number of types of "reform" under consideration, most of which just create more bureaucracy and spend more money without significantly improving the health care system. The only genuine "reform" is the bill proposed by Senators Ron Wyden and Bob Bennett, which gets rid of the tax benefit for employer-provided coverage, the soundest way to finance the expansion of health coverage.

That's my opinion in a nutshell, and it's formed from the relatively small amount of material I've managed to retain from the extensive writings of Nate Silver and The Economist. This whole debate is very complex.
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The Casey
post Aug 1 2009, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Aug 1 2009, 04:23 PM) *
Not entirely truthful. The Republicans are not "opponents of reform", just opponents of the government taking a larger role. There are a number of types of "reform" under consideration, most of which just create more bureaucracy and spend more money without significantly improving the health care system. The only genuine "reform" is the bill proposed by Senators Ron Wyden and Bob Bennett, which gets rid of the tax benefit for employer-provided coverage, the soundest way to finance the expansion of health coverage.

I think the "reform" that the article was referring to is the reform currently taking place and likely to take place under a largely Democrat-controlled federal government.


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BigTS
post Aug 12 2009, 06:46 PM
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It now looks like a wave of right-wing extremism is being unleashed — hysteria and paranoia are being used to defeat the idea of single payer (and even Obama's timid attempts at reform).

Protestor with a gun at health care townhall

The man who is holding the poster is implying quite clearly that he is in favor of killing Obama.

It seems like the same media that refused to cover anti-war rallies of upwards to half a million people will give no end of coverage to one hundred racist whackjobs who show up at a health care town hall.


--------------------
“Somebody pushed for questionable trade agreements, job offshoring, union busting, monopolistic industrial concentration, the shredding of pensions and benefits, a financialized economy, deregulation, big government welfare for corporations and the lowest taxes on the rich in generations. Somebody continued to expand these policies even after their destructiveness was well known. Somebody profited hugely. Now, with the Great Recession, the long and growing estrangement between the elites and the rest of us has snapped. Corporate America sits on $1.8 trillion cash while millions face years of unemployment and most see years of wage stagnation. Two Americas, indeed.”
—Rogue Columnist

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BadgerCam
post Aug 12 2009, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (BigTS @ Aug 12 2009, 11:46 AM) *
1. It now looks like a wave of right-wing extremism is being unleashed — hysteria and paranoia are being used to defeat the idea of single payer (and even Obama's timid attempts at reform).

Protestor with a gun at health care townhall

The man who is holding the poster is implying quite clearly that he is in favor of killing Obama.

It seems like the same media that refused to cover anti-war rallies of upwards to half a million people will give no end of coverage to one hundred racist whackjobs who show up at a health care town hall.

1. People exercising their rights of freedom of speech and expression to let their elected representatives know they disagree with a proposed piece of legislation is not "right-wing extremism... hysteria... [or] paranoia."

2. Nobody should be saying or implying they want to kill Obama. We may not a worship him, but he is the President.

3. There are far more than 100 "whackjobs" who oppose this government overhaul of the healthcare system. I would venture a guess that there are many times more than attended your anti-war rally as a matter of fact. And most people who attend these town halls are not racist and I don't appreciate you trying to paint us all with that brush.


--------------------


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too
much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
"

"
Where we directed from Washington when to sow
and when to reap, we should soon want bread.
"

"
I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.
It places the governors indeed more at their ease, at the expense of the people"

*Thomas Jefferson*

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BigTS
post Aug 12 2009, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (BadgerCam @ Aug 12 2009, 03:06 PM) *
QUOTE (BigTS @ Aug 12 2009, 11:46 AM) *
1. It now looks like a wave of right-wing extremism is being unleashed — hysteria and paranoia are being used to defeat the idea of single payer (and even Obama's timid attempts at reform).

Protestor with a gun at health care townhall

The man who is holding the poster is implying quite clearly that he is in favor of killing Obama.

It seems like the same media that refused to cover anti-war rallies of upwards to half a million people will give no end of coverage to one hundred racist whackjobs who show up at a health care town hall.

1. People exercising their rights of freedom of speech and expression to let their elected representatives know they disagree with a proposed piece of legislation is not "right-wing extremism... hysteria... [or] paranoia."

2. Nobody should be saying or implying they want to kill Obama. We may not a worship him, but he is the President.

3. There are far more than 100 "whackjobs" who oppose this government overhaul of the healthcare system. I would venture a guess that there are many times more than attended your anti-war rally as a matter of fact. And most people who attend these town halls are not racist and I don't appreciate you trying to paint us all with that brush.


1. Disrupting town hall meetings and not allowing debate to even occur is against freedom of speech and expression.

2. I'm pretty sure he is implying that he wants to kill Obama. Specifically his sign reads: “It’s time to water the tree of liberty,” an allusion to a famous line from Thomas Jefferson, the rest of which is that “the tree of liberty” needs to be “watered” with the “blood of tyrants.” If you bother to read that closely, the poster essentially announces that it's time to kill the President.

3. What makes Obama different from the other big spenders who have previously occupied the White House? This is very much about protecting the ideological legacy of the right, which has used racial politics (in indirect, in-explicit ways) to protect the status quo.


--------------------
“Somebody pushed for questionable trade agreements, job offshoring, union busting, monopolistic industrial concentration, the shredding of pensions and benefits, a financialized economy, deregulation, big government welfare for corporations and the lowest taxes on the rich in generations. Somebody continued to expand these policies even after their destructiveness was well known. Somebody profited hugely. Now, with the Great Recession, the long and growing estrangement between the elites and the rest of us has snapped. Corporate America sits on $1.8 trillion cash while millions face years of unemployment and most see years of wage stagnation. Two Americas, indeed.”
—Rogue Columnist

Students for a Democratic Society
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BadgerCam
post Aug 12 2009, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (BigTS @ Aug 12 2009, 12:30 PM) *
QUOTE (BadgerCam @ Aug 12 2009, 03:06 PM) *
QUOTE (BigTS @ Aug 12 2009, 11:46 AM) *
1. It now looks like a wave of right-wing extremism is being unleashed — hysteria and paranoia are being used to defeat the idea of single payer (and even Obama's timid attempts at reform).

Protestor with a gun at health care townhall

The man who is holding the poster is implying quite clearly that he is in favor of killing Obama.

It seems like the same media that refused to cover anti-war rallies of upwards to half a million people will give no end of coverage to one hundred racist whackjobs who show up at a health care town hall.

1. People exercising their rights of freedom of speech and expression to let their elected representatives know they disagree with a proposed piece of legislation is not "right-wing extremism... hysteria... [or] paranoia."

2. Nobody should be saying or implying they want to kill Obama. We may not a worship him, but he is the President.

3. There are far more than 100 "whackjobs" who oppose this government overhaul of the healthcare system. I would venture a guess that there are many times more than attended your anti-war rally as a matter of fact. And most people who attend these town halls are not racist and I don't appreciate you trying to paint us all with that brush.


1. Disrupting town hall meetings and not allowing debate to even occur is against freedom of speech and expression.

2. I'm pretty sure he is implying that he wants to kill Obama. Specifically his sign reads: “It’s time to water the tree of liberty,” an allusion to a famous line from Thomas Jefferson, the rest of which is that “the tree of liberty” needs to be “watered” with the “blood of tyrants.” If you bother to read that closely, the poster essentially announces that it's time to kill the President.

3. What makes Obama different from the other big spenders who have previously occupied the White House? This is very much about protecting the ideological legacy of the right, which has used racial politics (in indirect, in-explicit ways) to protect the status quo.

1. If you prohibit them from expressing themselves you violate the 1st amendment. If you don't hey violate others right. It's not a perfect system I guess.

2. I was agreeing with you. As much as like Jefferson, that was an inappropriate use of his works.

3. He want's to spend more than any of them ever did. Ana for most of this it has nothing to do with legacy of our political beliefs. It has to do with protecting the legacy of our freedom. America has had two revolutions because the people feel the government got too powerful and we want to stop he government from taking too much power. And I would like to know how the right is so racist.


--------------------


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too
much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
"

"
Where we directed from Washington when to sow
and when to reap, we should soon want bread.
"

"
I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.
It places the governors indeed more at their ease, at the expense of the people"

*Thomas Jefferson*

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AK_WDB
post Aug 12 2009, 10:01 PM
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Shut it off, shut it off, buddy, gonna shut you down...
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Captaink
post Aug 12 2009, 10:16 PM
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FYI, the guy with the gun was outside of the building, well away from the president. Furthermore, it is entirely within his rights to carry an unconcealed weapon, unless of course he was within sight of the president, which he wasn't. You really think the secret service would let someone visibly packing to get close to the brobama?

Also, way to make broad assumptions. Just because someone had a gun didn't mean that he "is implying quite clearly that he is in favor of killing Obama". I carry a knife with me most days, but that doesn't "imply quite clearly" that I want to stab my biology professor, even if he did give me a bad grade.


--------------------
QUOTE
If you get off of school grounds, kiss your ass goodbye as you’re now faced with angry centaurs, hungry spiders, and every variety of evil, man slaughtering mythical beast you can think of. Including trees. There’s a freaking tree that can kill people.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatrioitic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt
Editorial in the Kansas City Star May 7, 1918
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AK_WDB
post Aug 12 2009, 10:19 PM
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The implication was due to the Thomas Jefferson quote, not the gun.
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BadgerCam
post Aug 12 2009, 10:21 PM
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Sorry Kevin. I think I will have to go with Will on this one. That was more than a little out of line.


--------------------


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too
much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
"

"
Where we directed from Washington when to sow
and when to reap, we should soon want bread.
"

"
I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.
It places the governors indeed more at their ease, at the expense of the people"

*Thomas Jefferson*

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Captaink
post Aug 12 2009, 10:24 PM
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Now Zoidberg is the popular one!
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QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Aug 12 2009, 05:19 PM) *
The implication was due to the Thomas Jefferson quote, not the gun.

True, but if it is ok for the fringe on the left to make similar statements about Bush 43, it is ok for the fringe on the right to do the same for Obama. Either it is ok to call the president a tyrant, or it isn't. You can't change the rules (this goes for both sides)


--------------------
QUOTE
If you get off of school grounds, kiss your ass goodbye as you’re now faced with angry centaurs, hungry spiders, and every variety of evil, man slaughtering mythical beast you can think of. Including trees. There’s a freaking tree that can kill people.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatrioitic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt
Editorial in the Kansas City Star May 7, 1918
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BadgerCam
post Aug 12 2009, 10:29 PM
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There is a difference between saying someone is a tyrant and alluding to a quote that says the blood of tyrants is need to refresh the Tree of Liberty from time to time.


--------------------


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too
much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
"

"
Where we directed from Washington when to sow
and when to reap, we should soon want bread.
"

"
I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.
It places the governors indeed more at their ease, at the expense of the people"

*Thomas Jefferson*

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The Casey
post Aug 12 2009, 10:41 PM
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The main concern seems to stem from the already heated town hall meetings. The media certainly does not appear to be helping too much to lower the threat or fear of health care meetings becoming more violent than fevered shouting, and I think the worry here is that if people are bringing guns to these meetings, how much more violent are they going to get?

I must clarify that this doesn't say "People have guns, people angry, therefore people shoot people." I'm more trying to get across that the media both incites these actions and incites fear of these actions. I do agree with the point that having a lethal (especially projectile) weapon near major world leaders is unnecessary and frankly hazardous.

(I am not strongly anti-gun and do not feel like talking about it if it will be unnecessary, especially since this is a health care topic)

This post has been edited by The Casey: Aug 12 2009, 10:41 PM


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AK_WDB
post Aug 12 2009, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (Captaink @ Aug 12 2009, 02:24 PM) *
QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Aug 12 2009, 05:19 PM) *
The implication was due to the Thomas Jefferson quote, not the gun.

True, but if it is ok for the fringe on the left to make similar statements about Bush 43, it is ok for the fringe on the right to do the same for Obama. Either it is ok to call the president a tyrant, or it isn't. You can't change the rules (this goes for both sides)

Did I say it was OK for the fringe left to make insinuations about killing Bush? No, I really don't think I ever said that.

QUOTE (The Casey @ Aug 12 2009, 02:41 PM) *
The main concern seems to stem from the already heated town hall meetings. The media certainly does not appear to be helping too much to lower the threat or fear of health care meetings becoming more violent than fevered shouting, and I think the worry here is that if people are bringing guns to these meetings, how much more violent are they going to get?

I'd have to agree with you there. The media loves to report on strife, and they're blowing it out of proportion and thereby increasing the amount of influence these loonies have on the general American public.
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Research Monkey
post Aug 12 2009, 11:53 PM
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I just watched a woman on Hardball who spoke at an Arlen Specter rally (perhaps you've seen the clip), and it was really obvious that she was utterly clueless.

The anchor (the dude filling in for Chris Matthews) asked her if by saying "return this country to what the Founding Fathers intended in the Constitution," she meant repeal programs (which he called well instituted programs that are indeed socialism, he didn't try and trap her at all) like Medicare, and she said she didn't want to give an answer. I'm cool with people voicing their opinions when they understand what they mean, but I really think people who don't understand these issues are making a lot of fuss that's hurting any sort of progress or reform. I'm pretty sure that an ideal system of governance will incorporate ideas from across the political spectrum, and my views might not always be best. But for the love of humanity, please, fight ideas with ideas. Not with death panels, guns, "keep government out of my Medicare" signs, not decrying socialism, not claiming that government will be pulling the plug on grandma (especially not from a certain U.S. Senator from Iowa...), not any of this smurf.

I see town hall meets where a couple people cheer on a speaker who says anything about the quality of health care decreasing or that it will cause our taxes to go up, but when people say "THE GOVERNMENT IS TAKING OVER! GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS BAD, BUREAUCRATS SUCK!" the whole crowd goes wild.


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AK_WDB
post Aug 13 2009, 12:20 AM
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I'm still baffled by the fact that everyone seems to be criticizing "the Obama health care plan." As far as I'm aware, there are at least five different health care bills that have been proposed in various Congressional committees, none of which has been sponsored by the Obama administration. It's possible that there are new developments of which I'm unaware, but Nate Silver usually does a pretty decent job of keeping me informed.
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Research Monkey
post Aug 13 2009, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (AK_WDB @ Aug 12 2009, 05:20 PM) *
I'm still baffled by the fact that everyone seems to be criticizing "the Obama health care plan." As far as I'm aware, there are at least five different health care bills that have been proposed in various Congressional committees, none of which has been sponsored by the Obama administration. It's possible that there are new developments of which I'm unaware, but Nate Silver usually does a pretty decent job of keeping me informed.


Nope, that's still accurate.


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BigTS
post Aug 13 2009, 04:43 PM
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They have reduced all government action, other than warmaking, to a large socialist conspiracy.

But why? I don't get it, where were you guys when Bush was becoming one of the biggest government spenders that we've ever had?

Oh yeah, Obama is that Kenyan Black nationalist/Marxist/Muslim that wants to take everything from the good white people.


--------------------
“Somebody pushed for questionable trade agreements, job offshoring, union busting, monopolistic industrial concentration, the shredding of pensions and benefits, a financialized economy, deregulation, big government welfare for corporations and the lowest taxes on the rich in generations. Somebody continued to expand these policies even after their destructiveness was well known. Somebody profited hugely. Now, with the Great Recession, the long and growing estrangement between the elites and the rest of us has snapped. Corporate America sits on $1.8 trillion cash while millions face years of unemployment and most see years of wage stagnation. Two Americas, indeed.”
—Rogue Columnist

Students for a Democratic Society
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AK_WDB
post Aug 13 2009, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (BigTS @ Aug 13 2009, 08:43 AM) *
They have reduced all government action, other than warmaking, to a large socialist conspiracy.

But why? I don't get it, where were you guys when Bush was becoming one of the biggest government spenders that we've ever had?

Oh yeah, Obama is that Kenyan Black nationalist/Marxist/Muslim that wants to take everything from the good white people.

Yes, everyone knows all opposition to Obama must be born out of racism. Heaven forbid that anyone could actually disagree with his policies.

(For the record, I do agree with you that most of the protesters don't have a clue what they're talking about, as evidenced by the fact that they think there's an "Obama health care plan".)
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